What a wonderful and helpful lady you are! Loved the science, the personal study, and the bunnies at Easter dinner 🥰 hoping for your ongoing triumphs 🐰
JD - Eggsellent work. Urtica dioica (stinging nettle) tea has high chlorogenic acid content; works the kidneys, reduces uric acid, gall & kidney stones. The bonus with nettle is anti flammatory inhibition of Nf-Kb, Cox 1 & 2 and ultra high Vitamin K content. Hoppy Easter!
Naybob and also Jennifer, can we distinguish between K1 and K2? I'm asking because my sister has a clotting problem, but she needs K2 and nattokinase, but she keeps getting spooked because of advice against "Vitamin K" if you have clotting problems..
I wonder if lumbrokinase would be better for her...
taking a nattokinase supplement would not have vitamin K2 in it too. I don't think lumbrokinase needs to be a used instead but either can help with clotting risk if taken separately from meals. Otherwise they help digest the meal and some people use it for that reason.
JD - You are correct, Nattokinase supplements do not contain Vitamin K2. It is NATTO which is rich in Nattokinase and K2 and both work though distinct pathways. The latter is TYPICALLY separated out due to the conflicting effects on blood clotting. That's why I wrote about natto, not nattokinase.
In this 2015 study, a single dose of Nattokinase (with K2 removed) prolongs PT & PTT (activated partial thromboplastin time - measures the clotting factors) significantly viz enhancing fibrinolysis and anti-coagulation via several different pathways simultaneously.
Lumbrokinase is stronger 30X vs nattokinase & 300X vs serrapeptase in breaking down fibrin - which must be present for that to occur- enhancing fibrinolysis. However, lumbro doesn't appear to change prothombin times like Nattokinase, at least in the study I cited from 2000. Can't find anything since re: PT in lumbro. Cavaet Emptor.
If put on blood thinners, or with that risk, the very low 45 mcg supplement might be the solution. Seeing someone for individual guidance would be good as more background info is needed.
Oh, btw, I am working on setting up a virtual clinic. I can not do medical nutrition therapy individually across state lines but can be an educator or coach who provides more general guidance or answers that aren't individualized to a assessment and care plan level. ~ a Lifestyle coach for reducing hyperinflammation in many areas of life is needed beyond diet info.
CoV clotting problems I think benefit from taking K2 in part because there is also bleeding damage elsewhere - clotting factors get used up. However I am not an expert on that level of medical care. If put on blood thinners they recommend limiting K.
Search results suggest I am not wrong in thinking it is fairly safe. It is needed for the body to make clotting factors, but it isn't going to cause that to happen just by existing/being present in the body. Taking it is helping us be ready for a bleeding issue.
Vitamin K is found in green leafy veggies in large quantities but we only convert a small amount of it to the K2 form. I have seen some writers suggest it should really be considered two different 'vitamins' as the form and functions are different enough to need both in the diet.
"Safety
Since the primary deficiency disease associated with vitamin K is bleeding due to impaired blood clotting, it is often thought that high intake of vitamin K may increase thrombosis risk. This is evidently not true. Full carboxylation (and thus: maximal procoagulant activity) of the vitamin K-dependent clotting factors is essential, and vitamin K metabolism has been designed to meet that goal with highest priority. Excess vitamin K intake cannot result in more clotting factor carboxylation. This has also been demonstrated within our institute in thousands of subjects taking high doses of vitamin K during several years. Even when monitored with the most sensitive techniques (endogenous thrombin potential, ETP), an increased thrombosis tendency was not found in any of the participants. An exception is formed by patients receiving oral anticoagulants like warfarin or acenocoumarol that act as vitamin K-antagonists. Obviously excess vitamin K intake will interfere with this medication. On the other hand it is becoming increasingly clear that the long-term use of these drugs is associated with accelerated bone loss, low bone mass, and widespread valvular and arterial calcifications (26), thus demonstrating once more the importance of vitamin K for bone and vascular health."
Vermeer C. Vitamin K: the effect on health beyond coagulation - an overview. Food Nutr Res. 2012;56. doi: 10.3402/fnr.v56i0.5329. Epub 2012 Apr 2. PMID: 22489224; PMCID: PMC3321262. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321262/
Phar B It From Me - Natto is a two edged sword - a fibrin buster anti-coagulant which is full of Vitamin K2 (long chain) a pro-coagulant.
As JD noted, Vitamin K can have a serious and potentially dangerous interaction with anticoagulant drugs which antagonize the activity of vitamin K, leading to the depletion of vitamin K-dependent clotting factors.
Natto is full of K2 which can interfere with anticoagulation therapy in a clinically relevant way when used above 50 μg/day = 0.05 mg
Lumbrokinase = Though it dissolves fibrinogen and fibrin very specifically, it hardly hydrolyses other important blood proteins such as plasminogen or albumin. It has very low risks of causing hemorrhage due to excessive fibrinolysis = it may not increase the risk of excessive bleeding as anticoagulants can.
LK activates fibrinolysis via tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA) activity, and it does not change PT - prothrombin times as a pro or anti coagulant might.
NOW brand has a Mega D-3 & MK-7 with 5,000 IU D-3 and 180 mcg of K-2 MK-7 from MenaQ7 brand which is extracted from a fermentation grown on chickpea. It was the most economical source I found for the MenaQ7 brand K-2 MK-7. This pill with another 5.000 D3 only pill is a workable way to take 10,000 D3 a day. Swanson markets a 100 mcg of K-2 MK-7 (chickpea but no MenaQ7 reference) with ~5,000 IU D-3 which is low cost when on the up to 50% off regular sale but of what quality?
From D-3 with K-2 MK-7 information reported on by Dr John Campbell recommending ~ 100 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per ~5,000 IU D-3 and 200 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per ~10,000 IU D-3 but not more than 200 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per day if adding startup larger loading dose to boost continuing D-3 & MK-7 dosing.
That would be a low dose of K2 compared to the animal study on atherosclerosis. That is around the RDA amount I think. Actually, there is the not K2 form which has a higher dose. I would need to double check it.
Personally I take a 45 mg K2 supplement and less D then that. Sunshine is better.
As I understand from covid times reporting the amounts of D3 and K-2 MK-7 are what appear to be needed for a normal weight person to take to get, over time, vitamin D levels in the blood into the 50 ng/ml to 90 ng/ml optimum range for best covid times immune response and to help the D3 initiated blood calcium level increase into the bones and out of soft tissue.
The 45 milligram dose looks to be in a different class.
What a wonderful and helpful lady you are! Loved the science, the personal study, and the bunnies at Easter dinner 🥰 hoping for your ongoing triumphs 🐰
Aww thanks.
I need to stay focused, I do have a lot going on.
JD - Eggsellent work. Urtica dioica (stinging nettle) tea has high chlorogenic acid content; works the kidneys, reduces uric acid, gall & kidney stones. The bonus with nettle is anti flammatory inhibition of Nf-Kb, Cox 1 & 2 and ultra high Vitamin K content. Hoppy Easter!
Thanks! I may buy some NN but spring is on its way. It is probably in my neighborhood. We have a river and wetland.
I still am drinking spleenwort and lavender tea or a sun tea with skullcap, rooibus, pomegranate rind and yarrow powder.
love the nettle! Thx for reminding me
I wrote a post about stinging nettle health benefits and foraging tips not too long ago in case you missed it.
Naybob and also Jennifer, can we distinguish between K1 and K2? I'm asking because my sister has a clotting problem, but she needs K2 and nattokinase, but she keeps getting spooked because of advice against "Vitamin K" if you have clotting problems..
I wonder if lumbrokinase would be better for her...
taking a nattokinase supplement would not have vitamin K2 in it too. I don't think lumbrokinase needs to be a used instead but either can help with clotting risk if taken separately from meals. Otherwise they help digest the meal and some people use it for that reason.
JD - You are correct, Nattokinase supplements do not contain Vitamin K2. It is NATTO which is rich in Nattokinase and K2 and both work though distinct pathways. The latter is TYPICALLY separated out due to the conflicting effects on blood clotting. That's why I wrote about natto, not nattokinase.
https://www.vinatura.store/blogs/articles/nattokinase-and-vitamin-k2
Helpful article and it answered where to get in the range of 700 mg - 2.5-3 oz of Natto might provide 880 mg.
In this 2015 study, a single dose of Nattokinase (with K2 removed) prolongs PT & PTT (activated partial thromboplastin time - measures the clotting factors) significantly viz enhancing fibrinolysis and anti-coagulation via several different pathways simultaneously.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4479826/
Lumbrokinase is stronger 30X vs nattokinase & 300X vs serrapeptase in breaking down fibrin - which must be present for that to occur- enhancing fibrinolysis. However, lumbro doesn't appear to change prothombin times like Nattokinase, at least in the study I cited from 2000. Can't find anything since re: PT in lumbro. Cavaet Emptor.
https://www.onedaymd.com/2022/12/lumbrokinase-vs-nattokinase-vs.html
I don't know what your day job is/was NN but you seem to know more than I do, or a lot.
Thanks for your input. I enjoy talking about this stuff and a many people don't.
If put on blood thinners, or with that risk, the very low 45 mcg supplement might be the solution. Seeing someone for individual guidance would be good as more background info is needed.
Oh, btw, I am working on setting up a virtual clinic. I can not do medical nutrition therapy individually across state lines but can be an educator or coach who provides more general guidance or answers that aren't individualized to a assessment and care plan level. ~ a Lifestyle coach for reducing hyperinflammation in many areas of life is needed beyond diet info.
CoV clotting problems I think benefit from taking K2 in part because there is also bleeding damage elsewhere - clotting factors get used up. However I am not an expert on that level of medical care. If put on blood thinners they recommend limiting K.
Search results suggest I am not wrong in thinking it is fairly safe. It is needed for the body to make clotting factors, but it isn't going to cause that to happen just by existing/being present in the body. Taking it is helping us be ready for a bleeding issue.
Vitamin K is found in green leafy veggies in large quantities but we only convert a small amount of it to the K2 form. I have seen some writers suggest it should really be considered two different 'vitamins' as the form and functions are different enough to need both in the diet.
"Safety
Since the primary deficiency disease associated with vitamin K is bleeding due to impaired blood clotting, it is often thought that high intake of vitamin K may increase thrombosis risk. This is evidently not true. Full carboxylation (and thus: maximal procoagulant activity) of the vitamin K-dependent clotting factors is essential, and vitamin K metabolism has been designed to meet that goal with highest priority. Excess vitamin K intake cannot result in more clotting factor carboxylation. This has also been demonstrated within our institute in thousands of subjects taking high doses of vitamin K during several years. Even when monitored with the most sensitive techniques (endogenous thrombin potential, ETP), an increased thrombosis tendency was not found in any of the participants. An exception is formed by patients receiving oral anticoagulants like warfarin or acenocoumarol that act as vitamin K-antagonists. Obviously excess vitamin K intake will interfere with this medication. On the other hand it is becoming increasingly clear that the long-term use of these drugs is associated with accelerated bone loss, low bone mass, and widespread valvular and arterial calcifications (26), thus demonstrating once more the importance of vitamin K for bone and vascular health."
Vermeer C. Vitamin K: the effect on health beyond coagulation - an overview. Food Nutr Res. 2012;56. doi: 10.3402/fnr.v56i0.5329. Epub 2012 Apr 2. PMID: 22489224; PMCID: PMC3321262. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321262/
Phar B It From Me - Natto is a two edged sword - a fibrin buster anti-coagulant which is full of Vitamin K2 (long chain) a pro-coagulant.
As JD noted, Vitamin K can have a serious and potentially dangerous interaction with anticoagulant drugs which antagonize the activity of vitamin K, leading to the depletion of vitamin K-dependent clotting factors.
Natto is full of K2 which can interfere with anticoagulation therapy in a clinically relevant way when used above 50 μg/day = 0.05 mg
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17158229/
Lumbrokinase = Though it dissolves fibrinogen and fibrin very specifically, it hardly hydrolyses other important blood proteins such as plasminogen or albumin. It has very low risks of causing hemorrhage due to excessive fibrinolysis = it may not increase the risk of excessive bleeding as anticoagulants can.
LK activates fibrinolysis via tissue plasminogen activator (t-PA) activity, and it does not change PT - prothrombin times as a pro or anti coagulant might.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11321442/
Phar Bingo.
NOW brand has a Mega D-3 & MK-7 with 5,000 IU D-3 and 180 mcg of K-2 MK-7 from MenaQ7 brand which is extracted from a fermentation grown on chickpea. It was the most economical source I found for the MenaQ7 brand K-2 MK-7. This pill with another 5.000 D3 only pill is a workable way to take 10,000 D3 a day. Swanson markets a 100 mcg of K-2 MK-7 (chickpea but no MenaQ7 reference) with ~5,000 IU D-3 which is low cost when on the up to 50% off regular sale but of what quality?
From D-3 with K-2 MK-7 information reported on by Dr John Campbell recommending ~ 100 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per ~5,000 IU D-3 and 200 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per ~10,000 IU D-3 but not more than 200 mcg of K-2 MK-7 per day if adding startup larger loading dose to boost continuing D-3 & MK-7 dosing.
That would be a low dose of K2 compared to the animal study on atherosclerosis. That is around the RDA amount I think. Actually, there is the not K2 form which has a higher dose. I would need to double check it.
Personally I take a 45 mg K2 supplement and less D then that. Sunshine is better.
As I understand from covid times reporting the amounts of D3 and K-2 MK-7 are what appear to be needed for a normal weight person to take to get, over time, vitamin D levels in the blood into the 50 ng/ml to 90 ng/ml optimum range for best covid times immune response and to help the D3 initiated blood calcium level increase into the bones and out of soft tissue.
The 45 milligram dose looks to be in a different class.
interesting "K" information on this natto manufacturer's page here https://www.nyrture.com/blog/natto-and-vitamin-k2
HI there, question: If one takes the D3K2 combo AND natto ...would the natto support the K2?
It would add more K2 I think.
Thank you!
interesting "K" information on this natto manufacturer's page here https://www.nyrture.com/blog/natto-and-vitamin-k2